NED Sloop Rig Questions

I've been having a blast in my NED (sloop rigged), which I finished about a month ago. I am still trying to figure out how to best manage a reefing sequence and I'd love some advice if you have it. John at CLC has said that the jib is a good first reef, but I find that with no jib and winds gusting at 15+, the force on the tiller and subsequent weather helm is significant. I can probably ascribe some (maybe all?) of the force issues to poor sail trim on my part, but I always felt that the jib—left up with a reef in the main—would provide a good counterforce to the boat's desire to swing upwind. Any thoughts or advice? Thanks much. Drew  


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RE: NED Sloop Rig Questions

Hello again Drew.  Nobody has chimed in so I will give it a go even though I have never sailed a NED. 

I am a lifelong sailor and former USN Sailing Instructor/Racing skipper.  Over the last 40 years I have sailed a variety of rigs and find that the best reefing methodology varies with type of rig and even by boat with the same type of rig.  I have had sloops that sailed well on just the main and others that did better with reefing main first.  Given John's intimate knowledge of the NED, I have no doubt that his advice to drop jib first is sound.  That means that the problem probably lies with your sail trim.

As the wind strength starts to increase, are you making any adjustments to the main?  The general rule is that as your boat starts to get over powered, you should start blading out (reducing the camber) of the sail.  So as the wind increases, you start progressively tightening the halyard, outhaul, downhaul and/or cunningham.  This stretches the three edges of the sail and creates a flatter shape which is better for stronger winds.  If you are not blading out your main when you drop the jib, the sail is too fat and is making too much lift/drag.  This combined with reduction of sail area forward creates the strong weather helm that you are dealing with.

The other newbie error is to over trim the main, which also creates excess weather helm.  When you have the sail properly trimmed, all the telltails on both sides of the sail should be streaming aft.

The last point that I would make is that if you have not already done so, I'd advise that you get some lessons from somebody knowledgable.  Ideally this would be on your boat becasue an expert sailer can help make sure that your set up is correct.  Sailing is one of those things that you can do without training but you will never be good unless you get some good instruction.

RE: NED Sloop Rig Questions

Any particular reason you went with a sloop rig vs. a yawl?  I should thing the yawl would be much easier to balance when reducing sail as the wind pipes up, no?

.....Michael

RE: NED Sloop Rig Questions

   To answer Michael's question, I don't believe there is a yawl option on the NED despite, I think, Silver Salt modding his boat with a mizzen. There is a balanced lug option, however, but I liked the look of the sloop and the promise of a bit more upwind performance. For the person who provided all the advice, thanks much. I'm doing some, but certainly not all, of what you suggest. I definitley will make some adjustments and yes, I'm having a very seasoned sailing buddy spend some time with me to help get the skills honed and the rig nailed. I had a Hobie 16 befrore this for years that I would singlehand out in the SF Bay Area, and that was a whole different experience. As much fun as that was, I have to say that sailing a boat that I built is a much more satisfying experience. It definitely won't be the last build for me. 

RE: NED Sloop Rig Questions

   I'm sure that you could tighten the main luff and depower it some with the jib down, but I'm with you on putting in a main reef first.  I had a Tartan 30 for years, and it was standard for me to pull in the first reef before furling the genoa, if I had the 135 (#2) up.  If I had the 150% (#1) genoa up, I had goofed and needed to get it reduce also.  The T30 has a large main relative to the foresail, compared to many sloops of the '70s so it tends to load up with weather helm if you don't reduce some of that main area first.  

That said, it wouldn't hurt to have a downhaul or a "cunningham" (flattening reef) in the luff.  While racing either the T30 or a friend's boat, the first thing as breeze rose was to yank down hard on the cunningham to flatten the luff of the main.  Then start thinking about a first reef.  I don't know which of those is doable on the NED.

RE: NED Sloop Rig Questions

Oh, NED = Northeaster Dory, I now believe you meant.  My overstressed accronym decompiler lept to NED = Nesting Expedition Dinghy, a design to which I've given a lot more thought than I have to the Northeaster Dory, and so I was thinking of a yawl.  Duh.  My bad.

Good advice above on doing what you can to flatten the sail out as the wind pipes up.  Moving you weight a bit farther aft, within reason, may help counteract the weather helm a little as well, so long as you don't put her seriously down by the stern far enough to give her lee helm (bad in general, bad for windward performance especially).  Given your description of the arm twisting weather helm you are experiencing, it sounds like you're in little danger of over doing things that way.

.....Michael

RE: NED Sloop Rig Questions

To the unnamed author of the first response, 

I could have really used your answers when I traded in my Alberg Typhoon for a cutter-rigged Pacific Seacraft Flicka in 1985. It took a while to get a feel for all the trim combinations and options. It would have been easier with the mental model you provide.

Learning one's boat is well worth it. Once we figured it out, she was comfortable and controlable even in a full gale. I can vividly remember sailing her from Chatham, MA to Point Judith, RI in a gale with a few experienced friends. We four were sittng in the cockpit drinking coffee under a triple-reefed main and storm trysail when a Coast Guard 40-footer came by to shoo us in. After circling us once, they just waved and continued on their way.

-Dick

RE: NED Sloop Rig Questions

Hey gents, the post above with the yellow Goat is mine.  It must have timed out before I hit the post button.

For H2OMan, I will note that some of what you are experiencing is because of the differences between the Hobie and NED.  Hobie sails are cut rather flat to begin with because they move fast creating a lot of relative wind.  On slower, more traditional boats, the sails are fatter in order to create more power at low speeds, so it takes more adjustment to flatten them for higher winds.  Another point is that you may want to check your mast mast rake.  If you have it tilted aft too far, that will add to weather helm.

For Dick, yes it is a wonderful thing when you move from a sloop rig to a split rig in terms of sail combinations.  My last boat was a Nimble Arctic Yawl equipped with cruisng spin, 145% & 125% so I had a wide variety of sail combinations depending upon wind strength and the point of sail that I was on.  That boat was happoy as a clam in 40 kts wind with jib and jigger only.  That boat taiught me to love a split rig which is why I went with the yawl rig on my GIS. 

   

RE: NED Sloop Rig Questions

Thanks, Mark.

CORRECTION: In my post, that was a storm jib, not a storm trysail. A humiliated "Oops!" Nowdays in my 70s, I'm out on a Peeler Skiff and don't get too many chances to sail.

-Dick   

 

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