Sounds like you have a case of the '2-footitis'.  Always thinking you need just a little more room.  LOL

I have owned boats almost my entire adult life and it is an infliction that is hard to shake.  But as I get older I realize that less is oftentimes 'more' .   I am sure John will give his, as always, articulate reply, but I have a guess as to what it may be.  

I do concur that John/CLC have some very nice designs and I can't wait to finish my NE Dory so that I can think about which boat to build next.

John has drawn a version of pocketship that is 21 feet long. The problem is the cost. As he explained it to me:

The problem once you get any larger than PocketShip is that there's a
nonlinear increase in cost and complexity. A 17-foot PocketShip isn't
13% more expensive and doesn't take 13% longer to build; it's twice as
expensive and takes twice as long to build. And to design and
prototype!

He said the 21 foot version would cost 15-20K in materials to build and cost him 100K to design, prototype and create a detailed manual for it.

That is some very interesting information. But on the other hand I don't think anyone reasonable would expect a 21 foot boat with accommodations for two to cost the same as a Dory. Of course the cost would increase exponentially. As would the difficulty of construction. The simple act of inverting the hull would be a challenge. But isn't the challenge what make the end product worth it? I mean anyone can mosey on down to the local marina and flop down there credit app and sail away with a beautiful boat. But next to the boat you sweated and bled over? That's a whole other kettle of fish.

I don't disagree with you, I'd love a 21 foot pocketship. If John is going to invest 100K in a kit, he'd have to expect to get at least 100K back in sales. If adding 3 feet to the pocketship (to make it 18 feet) doubles the cost and adding 3 more to 21 feet doubles that, then the kit is 4 times the cost of the current pocketship. In 2014 CLC had shipped 500 NE Dorys. They also sold 60 Pockerships. That's almost 10 times fewer and Pocketship is just over twice the cost of the NE Dory. How many kits would sell at $13,600? Not only that, but the time to build it is 4 times longer. Pocketship takes about 9 months to build in evenings and weekends. At that rate, the 21 foot one would take 3 years. How many people are willing to tie up their garage for 3 years to build a boat? I don't think John could justify doing that boat on spec. Like the Faering Cruiser, the first one would have to be commisioned. If only the lotto people would stop picking the wrong numbers! :-D

Those Lotto people are no fun alright! I have a hard time with the whole “have to buy a ticket” concept myself!!

   Actually, being an engineer in research and test, I'd be interested in coming up with a more complete but closed form model for the cost in $ and hours for boats.  In the keelboat world I know, we generally assumed and it was borne out roughly, that costs more nearly were proportional to displacement, not length as newcomers would assume, and that generally, displacement tended to trend with the cube of the length, given similar styles.  

For DIY plywood boats, I'm thinking total volume and inches (feet? yards?) of fillet might be a good place to start with estimating the cost and time.   Don't want to make the model too nonlinear or too many parameters, but it might be fun (?) to noodle with it.  Anybody think there might be a grant in the study?  :-)

I'm fond of reminding people that economics is known as "The Dismal Science." The Dismal Science is in the driver's seat for most of coolest boat design projects, alas.

Madness-the-proa was a personal project. I'm not going to say how much THAT one cost; it's embarrassing. But I loved every minute of it. "We laughed, we cried, it became part of us..."

Ditto PocketShip; that one was for me and no one else. Honestly I thought maybe we'd sell one a year or something. If I hadn't been my own client that project would have never gotten started.

The Faering Cruiser was a commission by someone who understood that naval architects need to charge at least as much as the guy who does my lawn. There'd be a lot more interesting boats in the world if there were more clients like him...

Meanwhile, I keep doodling, but most of my energy goes towards updating and supporting our existing stable of designs. Because payroll.  

The timing of this thread is uncanny as last week I began composing a blog post entitled "The Search for the Next PocketShip," featuring an entertaining and rather hit-or-miss array of attempts to recapture some of PocketShip's lightning-in-a-bottle.  

Look for that in a few days.

   John, love the mini trawler concept. It looks like it would be right at  home on the Bahamas thin water. 

Looks top-heavy to me. Bet it'd be great fun in a cross wind.

Laszlo

Hi John and thanks for chiming in!

Wow that Snowy Egret looks great! I am looking forward to your blog. I just was typing up a huge list of questions about it but realized I was jumping the gun a bit. I got a little excited. I will wait for your blog, and then bombard you with questions!!

   Almost April. Time for the re-release of the 82 footer.

  Ok sorry I cant help but ask one question. Port side of the Snowy Eaglet, is that a wood stove? Small box with a chimney? If it is, you may have just made a sale....well in about 2 to 3 years.

You'll need a fire extinguisher.   

  Well, well...  Very nice!

But may I suggest that before jumping on exciting new projects, it might be nice to finalize the ones which are in the pipeline... for instance, that so beautiful and unconventional "Outrigger Junior"... There is nothing similar in the market, and I am sure that many people would show their interest if they knew that the boat is really fully completed, safe and ready for sale...

>>>>But may I suggest that before jumping on exciting new projects, it might be nice to finalize the ones which are in the pipeline...
>>>>>

I agree completely. Which is why the new releases in general have slowed the last few years. Overhauls of instruction manuals have been the main priority, displacing the Outrigger Junior from its launch among several others.  (The OJ is 100% complete design-wise. It's just awaiting its lavish assembly manual.)

Likewise, absent a live commission, larger PocketShips remain the realm of entertainment and speculation for now.

And without further ado, for the benefit of cubicle procrastinators everywhere, here are a dozen candidates (and pseudo-candidates):

The (Unending) Search for the Bigger PocketShip

My Votes are in!!  Loving the Pocket ShipIII and the Snowy Eagret!!!!!

   I love John's post on larger variants of  Pocketship. I voted  for Joy Spring and Artful Dodger, but if I were going to build something larger than  the Northeaster Dory, I'm sure I'd opt for either the Southwester Dory or Autumn Leaves. Both would row well and sail better, and both would be nice boats for coastal cruising. Autumn Leaves would probably win my heart because it is so different from my (absolutely delightful) dory. I can imagine a long, comfortable cruise in Autumn Leaves.

My favorite was Pocketship III. Too bad the votes aren't displayed; it would be interesting to see what the vote percentages are.

I'll post the results in a month or so.

I was right!! That is a wood stove!!! OK John as soon as I win the lottery I will be calling about the Snowy Egret.

I really like Joy Spring, Fifie, and the 16 ft Weekender, but I have neither the time nor the money (my wife would kill me) to build the two larger boats. Ah, but the Weekender ...

Autumn Leaves is my current CLC project in planning. I would be very interested in a kit for her.

Cheers,

Dick

   I agree with Mikeflys, I too would like to see a big brother version of Pocket ship or something in that 18-21' range.  I have been coming through the internet looking at different sailing vessels to build but haven't found my Goldilocks. The just right ship.

Looks are important, and to say otherwise I would be lying to myself. Space for two consenting adults as was written is preferred.  The Pocketship is an attractive boat and I would be interested in a larger version.

My 2 cents

Although not specifically discussed here, I think the Autumn Leaves has that indefinable "something", but is hampered by the suggestion that she may not be able to day sail two people in the cockpit area. If there was a way to remedy this simply (20 litre water containers under the bed perhaps, or a companionway seat?) then I think the boat would have more appeal. I also see questions on some forums about the sailing ability of the "square" boats, particularly to windward, so an essay re this and/or a demonstration of their sailing abilities in boisterous conditions would be good.

I suppose what I'm saying is it might be good to iron out some of the concerns re the existing design, before going to the (considerable) time and effort to design another boat.

Cheers,

Adrian

While I don't want to throw a monkey wrench into the works, why wasn't the 21'4" version of autumn leaves included:

• http://yachtee.blogspot.com/2016/09/canoe-yawl-autumn-leaves-update.html.  

I think this excercise was pretty compelling. It would be interesting to see how it would fare in the beauty contest.

   Why can't two people day sail in Autumn Leaves? There is plenty of room. If I remember correctly, John points out that this is a one person boat for overnight cruises, but I can imagine two very cozy people spooning in the cabin, or two casual friends with one in the cabin and the other in a tarp tent astern. . . . Still it is a lovely boat for long solitary cruising.

Now the 21-foot version . . . That can compete with Pocketship.

   John mused that two people in the cockpit might upset the trim of the boat, ie it might squat. Seems to me it could possibly be fixed with a bit of moveable ballast in the storage area under the bed and/or some sort of companionway seat (John?)

It's a special boat, it just needs to be able to day sail two.........

Cheers,

Adrian

   I see. But if you're day-sailing sailing with a friend, wouldn't the big cooler of beer in the shade on the berth take care of that?

  Spoken like a true Aussie, except we call it an esky here. Two slabs of beer for ballast, brilliant 😄

Jokes aside, I would love to hear John's thoughts re this.

Cheers,

Adrian

So nice boats... Difficult to make a choice... 

But please, John, please... would you be so kind to make a CATBOAT ? I am sure you would come up with a wonderful boat...

   I think we all have the bug that we want something bigger, but how many of us have the facilities, time and money to actually build one? I am building a PocketShip now and are coming up on 1 year building time so far. I work full time, so I have limited time. 

As far as the building space, the 15' existing PocketShip is about all I can fit in my garage with room to build and room to walk around. Anything larger, I would need some type of large shed. It would be nice!!! :)

For the money part, the build is not going to be cheap. I am fortunate to have a good day job that I can do activities like this, but I would estimate once I get a trailer, motor and all the other assorted safety requirements, I am going to be pushing well over 12K. To me well worth the activity. 

I will say I am having a GREAT! time building PocketShip and can't wait to get her on the water and I will have to admit, I am already looking at larger possible next builds, but I will have to convince the admiral and would definitely need a larger space. I will never say never though! It is nice to dream. 

For the new designs, I liked the following in no particular order. 

PocketShip III, CLC Sharpie, Snowy Egret

The build space can be a real problem. I have a 2-car garage that was built back in the pre-SUV days, so there is only 6'4" clearance through the door. That killed any chance of ever building or storing a Pocketship at home for me. A larger model is not even on my radar, as beautiful as some of John's candidates are.

My Faering Cruiser is 3 1/2' longer than the distance from my back wall to the garage door. In spite of Susanne Altenberger telling me that building a temporary facade is trivial, the realities of living in a neighborhood with a HOA make that impossible. So I can't store that boat at home either, indoors or out. Nor can I do any maintenance on it that requires protection from the elements or controlled conditions, at least not until I can find a space I can rent or borrow for a couple of days.

Don't get me wrong, I love my FC, but once you get beyond garage-sized there's a whole new world of challenges to face. Pocketship's length is pretty much right in the sweet spot.

As for the original poster, don't you realize that the more consenting a pair of adults are the smaller the boat can be? You only need a larger boat when the people aren't friendly enough.

Laszlo

As usual, Lazlo, you cut right to the heart of the matter.

Lazlo your point is a good one. But the unfortunate truth for those of us who have rounded the corner on 50. After all the consenting is done you need a little room to stretch out, we ant teenagers anymore!