Hi Diving Duck,

It sounds like you have the standard sprits'l rig (the snotter was the tip off). But that rig doesn't have stays, so I'm guessing when you say stays you are referring to the lacing that holds the luff of the raised sail snugly against the mast.

When you want to drop the sail, you unship the sprit, release the halyard, and pull the sail down. But the luff lacing is getting caught on the snotter, it sounds like.

A sail track would work, but it might cost more and be more work than some other solutions. And some sail track seems like it would be vulnerable to damage that could cause the sail slides to become jammed.

Can you rig the snotter so that it's easy to remove from the mast before dropping the sail? You might also experiment with different luff lacing systems. There are some methods that might loosen enough as the sail is lowered to make it possible for the lacing to easily pass around the snotter rigging.

Without knowing more details of your rigging arrangements, it's hard to be more specific. But I will admit to having a preference for rigging systems that can be fashioned and repaired using little more than bits of cordage.

Old Yeller 

Hi Old Yeller and thanks.  I was just logging in to change "stays" to "lacing" when I saw your post.  Don't know what I was thinking!  I agree with what you're saying--sometimes the old ways are best.  I posted some pictures way back when that show how I fixed the problem with the snotter fairlead (Photoshop has now changed to "Revel" and it is much harder to give people access to the pictures).  Anyway, I fashioned a fairlead of wood that has long tapers top and bottom for the lacing to pass over.  Works pretty good, and the snotter itself is not a big problem--I just have to make sure the sprit is fully lowered before I lower the sail.  

Anyway, I thought the rail might be a bit slicker solution, but it looks from your post that it might be problematic.  So you just saved me some money.  Thanks!

Gee, I'm not used to having my advice actually heeded -- it's kind of scary. Anyway, thanks for the thanks, and enjoy the heck out of your Skerry.

There's a wonderful older guy named John Guider who is currently sailing The Great Loop in a modified Skerry. Today he is sailing westward along the south shore of Lake Ontario, according to his posting on Facebook. It's been fun for me to follow his thoughts as he travels. He has done some interesting interviews too, which can be found by searching for his name on YouTube.  

Old Yeller

Hey Diving Duck, I just want to say I think you're very smart to want a good way to get the sail down quickly and safely while afloat. Any small boat can deal much better with strong winds and rough water under oars than under sail. It's a great survival strategy when the conditions deteriorate more than we expected.

Old Yeller

Yeller,

Thanks for your comments.  I found right away that when the wind came up or just when I was getting ready to sail back to port (or beach) I hated having to stand up even to "first reef" (sprit down).  One time it was getting kind of bad and I acutally unstepped the mast while afloat--pretty scary.

D-Duck,

I've been looking at some of your old posts and photos. You've done a beautiful job! Since you have already installed lazyjacks, sail track might let you drop the whole rig right into the jacks, sprit and all, from your comfortable seat in the cockpit. Sometimes the benefits make some extra complication worthwhile. So maybe you shouldn't hastily dismiss that.

Did I also see that you're in Oklahoma? There are some excellent people near Lake Eufaula who hold one of the best small homebuilt sailboat gatherings in the country each October. I bet you (and your boat, if you bring it) would fit right in. You can read more about it on their online forum, and join the conversation if you want to. It's a lively cordial bunch:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SailOklahoma/

Old Yeller

Phil Bolger's luff tie system has become my favorite to allow quick lowering of a laced sail.

This description is from Poly Sail

(you may have to right click on view to see it completely as I can't reduce the link)

Good find, Robert. Dave Gray of PolySail International has also presented an illustration of some methods from other sources:

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?164585-Tie-One-On

I haven't tried it, but am drawn to the Seized Spiral Lacing for masts. It looks like it would perform as well as the Bolger/Payson system, with half the amount of line needed, and a very neat appearance.

All of these continuous lacing systems rely on the strain being equal for at least adjacent pairs of grommets. That is generally the case, except for the end grommets, which are often subject to greater strains that are applied to the edges of the sail. If they don't get special attention and treatment, they can be pulled out of line with the other edge grommets, which can produce unwanted results in the set of the sail.

In the case of a sprits'l, the sprit introduces high tensions between the throat and peak of the sail, which can pull the throat grommet aft from its intended location. An individual tie around the mast for the throat gromment could fix that, but parrel beads (or rigging all the lacing very loosely) might be needed to keep that throat tie from binding on the mast as the sail is raised or lowered.

Diving Duck is probably thinking a sail track is starting to look better and better at this point ...

Which brings me to another question for him: Can your lazy jacks be adjusted to keep the bundled sail high enough above your head to make rowing comfortable? If they can't, or if you don't like the weight and windage up there, can they be lowered after the sail is under control, so that the bundle can be stowed low in the boat, out of the way of the oars while your are rowing?

Old Yeller 

Sail lacing methods:

Old Yeller:

Wow!  Thanks for all this great advice.  I like Phil Bolger's system because, if I understand it correctly, the laces get looser as you lower the sail.  This would make it easier for them to ride over the fairlead and snotter.

I will definitely look into that Lake Eufala group.  There are some really nice, and mostly clear, lakes in southeast Oklahoma.  I'm pretty sure some of them are actual lakes, not reservoirs.  Where I live they are all reservoirs and mostly muddy with Oklahoma red dirt.  :-)  (Have to add the smiley--people around here are pretty proud of that red dirt!)  

Anyway, thanks again.  BTW, I tried to get out on the water yesterday evening but the wind was getting fairly high and I got blown back into some concrete before I could get control.  (Then when I got out on the water it died completely.  Finally gave up and came back in, at which point it of course picked up again!)  Kind of dreading looking at the daggerboard and the hull bottom.  Daggerboard is not a huge deal--can replace it if I need to, but the hull is another matter.  

That being said, boats get beat up if you use 'em, there's no avoiding it.  I did finally order gunnel guard for the Skerry though.  That stuff's expensive--hope it works.

Yeller,

As to your lazy jacks question:  I decided to make them simple, i.e., no pulleys and no adjustments.  The way I have them set, they only allow the boom to come a little lower than the sale itself does when it is raised.  So they just hand kind of loosely around the sail and boom when the sail is up.  When the sail is down the boom still leaves me plenty of headroom.  

The only small problem has been the longer corner that is no longer being held up by the sprit.  That gets in my way sometimes.  I'm going to try your idea of putting the sprit inside the lazy jacks and leaving it attached to the sail head.  If that works, it will save me a lot of time and trouble getting rigged, and might help keep the sail head out of my way.  The only problem I can foresee is that this might make the sprit stick out to far above the mast when I am trying to stow it.  If that is the case I can simply untie the sprit from the sail and then re-tie it before steppping the mast.  Once I have experimented with all this I'll let you know the results.

This is great--between you and Lazlo I have gotten wornderful advice to help "tame" the rigging.  I think CLC is a great company, and John Harris a great designer, but I have to say the rigging, at least on the Skerry leaves a little to be desired.  At least for beginners like me--experienced sailors probably don't have any problems with it.

Hi Diving Duck,

All of the continuous lacing methods shown above will loosen up as the sail is dropped, I think. How much depends on the spacing of the grommets along the luff.

Being able to drop the sail into the lazy jacks with the sprit still attached to the peak would be a handy safety feature, but the sprit is long, and might need to protrude farther forward than we would like. Some experimentation would be instructive.

The sprits'l has its virtues, but also has some drawbacks. This advice is probably too late to help you, but my choice for any of the CLC sailboats would be the optional balanced lug rig. It is extremely easy to rig, reef, and strike in a hurry.

Old Yeller

Yes, I've been looking at the lug rig.  I initially decided on the sprit since that was what was what I guess you would call the "default," and I knew little or nothing about sailing. I felt the sloop rig had too many lines running all over the place for a beginner.  Anyway, I'll stick with the sprit for now and make it as efficient as I can.  When the sail needs replacing might be the time to look again at the lug.

As you say, the sprit may stick out too far for stowing, but I can untie it for that, leaving it inside the lazy jacks, then re-tie it just before I raise and step the mast.  Seems to me it would be both easier and safer.  Hope I can try it out soon.

One other thing: I have to tie the lazy jacks to the mast, just below the fairlead, when I am putting the sail away.  Otherwise it manages to somehow get itself around on one side of the boom or the other and is very difficult to figure out and fix when standing in the boat trying to rig!

Two words - brailing line.

I use one on my sailing dinghy with the boomless sprit rig. With the sail brailed up I can row home (have done so several times when the wind died), or sail with much reduced sail area.

All you need to do is reduce snotter tension and drop the sprit, then pull on the brailing line. Sail is brailed in 10 seconds or less.

If you can find the Okoumefest 2012 second page, theres a picture of me taking Dan Thaler for a ride that shows the brailing line quite nicely.

Laszlo

Is this the photo Laszlo? Nice looking boat!

I've got zero experience with brailing lines, but can see where one would be useful to get a boomless sprits'l and its sheet(s) out of the way in calm winds. I wouldn't think it would be as good a thing to do in strong winds though. Too easy for folds of sail to get loose and catch wind. But I suppose a guy could spiral wrap the brailing line closely around the brailed sail before cleating it off securely. It's still a lot of weight and windage up high, but it might be better than nothing when it doesn't feel safe to drop the mast. A brailing line wouldn't really work for Diving Duck though, because his sprits'l has a boom.

It's probably good for the sail to reduce the tension, but will the sail not brail completely up if you don't first releae the snotter?

Old Yeller 

Thanks Grant,

That's the boat, whith the sail brailed up. Here it is with the sail out and the brailing line visible.

It starts at the throat, goes back to the leech, back the to the the throat, through a blcok and down the mast to a cleat.

It is a fair bit of windage, but I use a carbon fiber sprit boom so the weight's not bad. Spiraling is good for storage, but I haven't needed it for reducing sail. I've seen it on boomed rigs, but you're right, it works best on boomless rigs.

Laszlo

Yeller and Laszlo,

Thanks for all your help--it is much appreciated!  I am going to stick with the halyard method because I want to keep my center of gravity low, and as Yeller points out I have a boom.

I had planned to use the Phil Bolger lacing method but the grommets are too small to cross two 3/16 lines through, so I'll use one of the other ones.

Duck

Of course if you really want to impress us you can go here and order mast hoops and cast brass mast hoop fasteners.

I've always wanted to build a boat that specified hoops and belaying pins but alas - have only used lacing and sail-track lugs. Perhaps John will start specifing wooden blocks and hoops on some of his plans for us old dreamers. BTW- I do know of some folks who made hoops out of PVC and aluminum tubing - with hooks attached to the sail gromets. Said they dropped immediately - but I would just use laces if twer me.

Robert,

I've always liked the look of the hoops too--but I think they'd look a little silly on my Skerry.  :-)  I agree with you on laces--they are working very well so far but the separate laces look kind of funky--safer though, if a single long lace breaks you lose the whole thing.  With 1200 lb test line and the little-bitty sail I'm not too worried though--am going to try either the siezed or "correct" spiral lace.

Duck