Built in keel on sailrig MK2

I'm thinking about bowrrowing the fixed keel idea from Warren Light Craft (http://www.warrenlightcraft.com/specs15sail.html) and adding keels to the amas to avoid the leeboard which looks fairly spray inducing and paddle stroke interrupting. Being able to get a natural paddle stroke in with the rig on is of high importance to me (I'm also spreading the akas to make more room). Has anyone tried this? I figure if it sucks I can always knock em off. Opinions?? Ideas??

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RE: Built in keel on sailrig MK2

The lee board is a better way to go.  I have sailed my MK2 rig in some pretty nasty conditions and have never had any problems with spray.  Also, Even with the leeboard in the raised position I have no problems paddling with the outriggers in place.  When the wind dies, I can keep a 3.5 knot speed for miles without the akas getting in the way.  Spreading the akas would result in either moving the mast so far forward that you would seriously mess with the center of effort or moving the aft aka too far back.  

 Also, you really do not want to add any more weight than necessary to the rig, especially when it comes to car topping, setting up, or using a kayak cart.  

 John really knew what he was doing when he designed the MK2. 

RE: Built in keel on sailrig MK2

I'd suspect you'd have to rig a jib on the MKII to get the craft to tack if you put fixed keels on the amas. Multihulls are not known for their tacking abilities, especially lightweights such as multihull kayaks. Generally you have to apply a little paddle power to tack and I would imagine the situation would  be exacerbated by keels so far outboard.

I've sailed as fast as 10 knots with my sailrig and never noticed any spray off the leeboard. At speed you will have way more spray off the bow and deck.

When the board is lowered it's not in the way at all of the paddle stroke. The only time it's in the way is when it's retracted.

You're idea of spreading the distance between the akas is good. The four feet clearance as given in the plans isn't quite enough for a comfortable double blade paddle stroke. I've got the sail rig on a triple kayak so spreading them further is not an option due to cockpit placement. I've taken to paddling with a single blade canoe paddle and find this works quite well. Hope this helps some.

RE: Built in keel on sailrig MK2

I agree with Dusty that the sailrig, can be hard to tack.  A little paddle effort usually is necessary, even with my jib.  You definitely don't want to do anything to make it any harder.  Also, I have noticed that the unmodified floats (amas) provide some leeway resistance on their own, just not as much as when the leeboard is used.  I found this out when I realized that my leeboard was sitting at home in the garage.  

RE: Built in keel on sailrig MK2

I just watched the video for the Warren light craft boat.  It looks really nice, but I did notice one glaring problem.  It looks like the mini keel on the upwind float rises just barely above the surface of the water.  On the day they filmed that, it looked like there was good wind, but the water was flat calm.  I know for sure that if there was any swell or chop that keel would be dipping and dragging in the water.  It sure seems like that would produce some serious spray right into the cockpit. I also don't like the way all the weight of the outriggers is placed on the keels when on land and making it much harder to pull up on a beach.  

 

With the CLC sailrig, the upwind float flies clear of the water in most conditions, when it does dip, the spray usually comes of the front tip and misses me.  Also, when on land, both floats stay in the air, making it a lot easier to pull up on the beach.  

RE: Built in keel on sailrig MK2

Warning! Armchair boat design ahead:

 One fun game I used to play when I owned a small sailboat, and was looking at moving up to a bigger boat instead of up to a smaller one  ;) was looking at what the overall goals of a designer were, and examining their boats against others. This thread has helped me go back and realize what Harris is up to. Designing boats which are undeniably elegant in their simplicity, tend more towards sea worthiness, simplicity, and durablity than raw speed and light weight.

From this, we can all find places we are willing to compromise  that he isn't. We can build lighter, use less epoxy or less glass, etc. We can decide to add more canvas, and then find ways to rebalance rigs, we can go farther to either extreme, and from the designs he's come up with, we will probably be ok, as they all seem to have enough leeway that our amature modifications won't fubar the whole deal. 

 When I look at the carbon fiber Warren design, I see something similar to the Hobie Trifoil. It's not about a safe, comfortable boat which I'd feel comfortable crossing, eg, the california channel in, it's about a go fast machine for protected waters. There's nothing at all wrong with that, but we need to look at horses for courses and see what each design is really aiming at, and ask ourselves what our own intended use is. From there, we can chose the best starting point for our own experiments. 

I spent a fair amount of armchair/internet time looking at how to make the CLC sail rig into a speed machine, without sacrificing open ocean capability, and other people have gone forward and done a great amount of work, changing rigs, rudders, leeboards etc, all to their own personal preference. 

Looking around at what other people have done, and talking to them about their experience with it might be your best bet. If you do decide to build in the keels, let us know how it goes for you. The difference may be exactly what you're looking for, or it may fail horribly. If so, get out the sawzall and just accept that it's going to be a winter of weekends to put it back to the way it was. 

 

Let us know what you decide to do. :) 

 

-- James

 

 

RE: Built in keel on sailrig MK2

Thanks for all the input, as the project comes together I'll keep yall informed!

RE: Built in keel on sailrig MK2

As my design process continues the project is taking more direction (plus while waiting for plywood I built the aka beams and have been fooling around with placement). I know some of you wonder why I'm so intent on tweaking the plans so much when the stock rig obviously works great. Well, that's part of the fun for me, I can't stand to leave anything stock since I always see chances that can make it more appealing to me (mabye not others though)... that's the whole idea behind customization. Take something designed to appeal to a broad range of users and make it appeal to my specific needs. Anyways...since this rig will mostly be used on my wilderness systems northstar tandem and occasionally on my 17LT the constraints imposet by the tandem take priority. I'm trying to achieve a balanced rig and unimpeded paddle strokes by both occupants while also setting it up so I can sail it single handed. Due to these factors the forward aka will be just behind the front cockpit... out of my reach from the rear which reinforces my notion to add keels as I won't be able to reach the leeboard. I plan to build the keels with a foam core/wood perimeter so they will be light yet impact resistant. I should be able fit an effective keel that won't increase the draft beyond that of the center hull so when its beached the center hull will bear most of the weight and the windward keel should lift clear in heavier air. Obviously I'm not too concerned about the tacking, I plan to carry a small canoe paddle on deck fo a touch of auxillary power if needed. Its also looking like the rig (carbon/mylar 6.5sqm windsurf rig) will be unstayed. I found a supplier of carbon fiber tubing and I plan on getting a 4' section that will serve as a mast base: it will run from the mast step in the hull up thru the deck, the support on the aka, and into the mast (the mast itself will terminate above deck). I figure if something breaks it will probably be this tube as the windsurf mast can flex to an amaxing degree (which will help spill excessive air) plus I can "reef" the rig by allowing it to rotate beyond 90deg to the beam in case I get caught with my pants down and find myself suddenly overpowered. Also I found a nice sheet of aluminum just thicker than the existing rudder so I'm going to make a larger and partially balanced blade (I'll probably overbalance it and trim it as needed during trials). Hopefully all this will work out and I'll end up with a fairly fast long distance cruiser. We shall see!

RE: Built in keel on sailrig MK2

I Like your ideas. I have built 2 cheasapeake 18's, a jimmy skiff and the 20ft,pokeamoke. The pokeamole is a round bottom design, difficult to build but is the fastest kayak I have ever paddled. It is a fast double that I am rebuilding in to a single. I am going to use my 60 square ft. jimmy skiff sail rig,unstayed to power it. The pokeamoke has a 12 ft. keelson that holds the hull together and adds a lot of strength to the design. I will try to post some pics fron time to time. I have also designed My own rudder design which allows me to have stationary foot braces with a lateral rudder control pivot foot slider in it. The pokeamoke was a design offered in the early 90,s by clc and I wish they still sold them. Please let us know how your project is coming along

RE: Built in keel on sailrig MK2

I'd love to see a pic of that pokeamoke project The rudder setup sounds cool too. I guess I'm going to try using the stock wilderness systems tandem rudder (with a larger, balanced blade) and I also plan to extend one of the steering arms so I can hook in a tiller.... unless I see a better design! Anyways, all the panels are scarfed and glued, now I've got to do some math to see if I can strech the length of the amas with the amount of wood I have.... thinking of adding an inch or two between each station to help balance the proportions with the increased aka spacing (plus longer is faster!).

RE: Built in keel on sailrig MK2

update...

hulls and akas are built and ready for finishing, rig is almost up, and I'm getting pretty excited. I managed to strech the hulls almost a foot and the aka spacing is set at 65". To ensure the balance of the rig I'm going to hold off on installing the keels (and finishing) until I make some trial runs. I've constructed a jig to hold a keel mockup next to an ama which will allow the keel to be adjusted fore and aft as well allowing easy changing out of different keel shapes so I can determine what will best serve my purposes. I'll be squaring the rig and bolting it all together tomorrow. I'll work on some pics...

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