https://plus.google.com/u/0/104406594594110366961/posts/AxNLembc4ua?pid=6129426987279751906&oid=104406594594110366961

Tim, We meet again!

Have  you seen this post?

http://www.clcboats.com/forum/clcforum/thread/29903.html

I have yet to build my kick up rudder kit but one thing I want to do is have one control line, not two, instead of a line for a downhaul,  it will be spring (bungee) loaded to be normally up, or normally down, and I'm leaning toward having a bungee loaded under tension to pull the rudder blade down in normal sailing position with no positive downhaul line, so if I hit anything it will spring up, then have a line as an uphaul to pull the rudder blade up against the bungee load that would go around a cheek block on the top of the rudder, clam cleat on the top of the rudder, with the same line laid in the boat so I can reach down, grab the line, and pop it loose when coming into a beach, or wanting to row, like you said.

The main thing to be decided is if a person wants to only use one line (I agree!) than it likely needs a bungee to pull one way while the line pulls the other, and to me I'd rather have the bungee pull the rudder down than up.  If a bungee pulled the rudder up and  line held the rudder down, then there is a higher potential for damage from hitting things with no spring loaded bounce up possiblility,

Your thoughts?

Curt

   If I understand you correctly Curt.  The rudder would be tensioned in the down postion with bungee and secured.  The other line would pull, against the downward bungee, bringing up the rudder where you then secure it in place with a cam.  

Under normal tension the rudder is down.  Under heavy pressure, the rudder is up and secured via the control line (up).

I think you would need a downward bungee that can be stretched quite a bit.

The photos on CLC for the kickup show a second line secured deep on the trailing edge of the rudder.  This doesn't look practical to me.  I'm thinking it should be closer to the top of the trailing edge.

   Tim, Yes you correctly stated my thoughts...there may be better ideas, but that's what I meant...also agree with you that to have a rudder-down loaded bunge it would need to be pretty long in order to allow enough extra length to pull it up, tensioning the bungee even more.  I wish I could remember how the ones I saw at the Wooden Boat anniversary worked, but one technique I remember from some small sailboat I owned had a thru hole on the leading edge of the rudder just above the water line  thru which the shock cord was fed and knotted, then the shock cord went up the leading edge, around the top curve of the rudder between the rudder sides, and then was secured as far aft as possible on the fixed part of the rudder.  I think the edge on the rudder where the shock cord lays also would have a nice deep cove milled into it to help capture the shock cord...am I making any sense at all!?!

Hmmm...maybe instead of running hold-down shock cord around the entire top of the kick up part of the rudder, it would work better to just go from the leading edge of the kick up part of the  rudder, just above the water line, but then straight up in a cavity between the rudder sides along the front edge of the main body of the rudder as high as possible then some kind of way to secure that end of the shock cord that one could adjust to get the tension just right.   Part of the top of the kick up part of the  rudder would still need a cove milled in it.   There has to be a picture of something like this somewhere.

   I am also working on the kick up rudder, did anyone glass the kick up. And did you round over the leading edge or taper the tailing edge. Curt, I know you like to put rope on your leading edges(dagger,bow,skeg). I have been using graphite epoxy on the inside surfaces of the daggerboard box, daggerboard and upper part of rudder, but I can't yet tell how tight the moving piece will be inside. I would like to graphite the moving piece also to match the daggerboard. Once you guys figure out the ropes and bungees please post a picture or two. I'm trying to follow your decriptions and dialog but as the saying goes,  a picture is worth a thousand words.

   Sounds like we have our own kickup rudder group.

If you look at the picture I linked based on what I'm describing.  There is a hole in the forward edge of the rudder  that is not seen.  The rope is attached here and the line goes between the cheeks (internal) and up the back side of the rudder to a cam cleat.  I'm hoping to put bungee on this downward pull line with enough stretch that will still allow it to pull up successfully.

Where you see the clamp on the trailing edge?  That is where I plan to put another hole for the pull up line.  I mocked it up with twine.  I'm contemplating putting a hole through the top tiller piece and a cam cleat.  Thus leaving one line to pull up and the bungee'd line to pull down and keep down.

I also plan to use graphite extensively.  The rudder, the insides of the cheeks etc...all will have graphite.  I'll post up pictures next week when I dive into the build.

   I have the parts for my Skerry rudder cut out and will begin to shape the leading and trailing edges next week. This discussion us very interesting to me because having experienced the Skerry under oar I don't know how much fun it would be leaning over the stern with a mast, boom, yard and sail swinging around. My question is, wouldn't the natural buoyancy of the rudder cause it to float up if the downhaul U.S. released?  

Wing15601:

Christine de merchant made an extra pullup string on het skerryrudder. On her case the rudder did not float up by itself.

http://www.christinedemerchant.com/rudder.html.  Scrolldown all the way.

   Christines idea is pretty close to what I was thinking.  I like how she egressed into the rudder below the yoke.  As for the rudder floating up?  I think the bungee'd downhaul would keep it secure.

   Is it feasible to weight the rudder blade so that the default position is down and the only line need is an uphaul? Possibly replace the wood rudder blade with a steel one?

   Update on my kick up rudder build:

I am struggling with two things on my dory kick up rudder...your suggestions please?!!?:

1) How to run a line for a rudder uphaul...any suggestions?https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/emAVZTQyCPymU6riXKaDezFolq1y-t7pqfyiNmzJPv8?feat=directlink

2) How to secure the upper pintle (the aft bolt would go right thru the hollow area where the rudder swings).  suggestions?
 https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/nizlQob_b8Eg38QKFCoEbTFolq1y-t7pqfyiNmzJPv8?feat=directlink
 

And I have figured out these two things:  (comments also invited!)

3) Use shock cord to hold the dory rudder down...I modified a method I found online on totally different boat and rudder.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/FLpjEWnwyrsMG7fG2CX_ajFolq1y-t7pqfyiNmzJPv8?feat=directlink   (and 2 more pictures to the right)

4) Round off some corners for various reasons
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/q_b6AfFC9Z-TFPsuBtbg-jFolq1y-t7pqfyiNmzJPv8?feat=directlink (and 4 more pictures to the right)

Oh, PS:   Dave..sorry you didnt get a reply about weighting the rudder...I always wonder if sand etc would interfere with a gravity rudder?   

Curt  830 997 8120 [email protected]

Hey, far be it from me to question gratuitous difficulty and fun engineering projects, but am I missing something in this thread? While underway doesn't your daggerboard whack the obstacle first kind of obviating the need for a spring up rudder? Except for beaching of course, when you've already pulled the board, but then wouldn't you just pull up the rudder at the same time?

I know I can be ignorant at times so feel free to school me!

ev

   ev, yep, your comment on beaching is the issue...both beaching and launching.  When beaching I think most people (myself included) pull the daggerboard up but want to keep steering a bit to drift into a dock or shore, then pull up the rudder, and same thing in reverse launching...want to have rudder control as soon as it will clear the bottom of the shore and drop the rudder, then when past shallow water drop the daggerboard.  I used to launch dingy sailboats from thigh deep water with rudder down and make a flying body roll into the boat...tool old for that stuff now...want to gracefully step into the boat from shallow water and have the control of the rudder (and daggerboard) from the sailing position.  One more thing...I have the conventional dory rudder on my boat now, and found it very annoying when beaching to have it get sucked into the sand 

   One more...the stock design of the CLC Dory kick up rudder has a pull down line only so even if it is released you cant push the boat backwards because the rudder will swing down and grab into the bottom of the lake.  A nice way to get into a dory is over the bow so being able to get into the dory in a few inches of water, walk to the center seat, row a few strokes then let the rudder down is a good way to do it,  but crawling to the back of the boat and lean over the transom to pull in on a downhal is another is another young persons sport.so having a rudder that is spring loaded to go down with an uphaul line led forward is the ultimate in easy.

   Just received my kick-up rudder kit, and have been thinking about all the above.  I believe that I'll only need to hold the rudder in the up position in one situation, and that's when I launch in shallow water, which I normally do.  And I want to be able to release the rudder from my normal sailing position on the seat just aft the dagger board without having to go all the way back. Think about it, I realized that I will not need a release line permanently attached to the rudder.  What I've thought about is a "drill-fill-drill" hole at the trailing edge of the rudder, far enough down to get the mechanical advantage.  Through that I run a long, thin line, and bring both ends back to the sailing seat and tie them off.  At the appointed time, I release one end, the rudder drops, and I hand-reel in the line.  Maybe have a pad eye at the top of the yoke to run the double line through.  Simple, if not elegant.  Thoughts?

   That is pretty much my thoughts exactly except I'm thinking a cam cleat on the rudder to hold the lines secure.  I'm currently building my rudder now and will post pics once they become relevant to the action of the rudder.

Tim

Frank,  RE:  Uphaul rudder line method:

Interesting method!   I do agree with you about a drill fill drill hole on the trailing edge of the rudder and I think that is how Tim intends to do his too from looking at his mockup.  I think this hole will need to be a fair ways down so that when the rudder is pulled up the DFD attach hole will not fold up into the slot between the rudder halves eh?   After many Catalina 22's that have keel cables, I hate the idea of any line or cable underwater and your idea of removing it once underway is interesting if it works for you.  For me, I think I'll do a drill fill drill hole too on the traliing edge of the rudder and also put a cheek block on the side of the rudder head with a very small clam cleat so I can pull it up when beaching.  I might use a short piece of very small aircraft cable for the part underwater, then convert to line to go thru the block and cleat

Curt

   Great thread, guys. I'm getting to the sail kit portion of my dory build  now, and ordered the kick-up rudder, so am following very closely.....keep the ideas coming!  Needless to say, if I have a eureka moment, I'll chip in!

   
I wont be able to build my kick up rudder until I get to WA in July but here are some things going around in my mind....credit to John Harris for his input on some of these thoughts.  I thought I'd put these thoughts into the forum so others could comment, either pro or con!

1. The wood for the rudder blade is the same thickness as the wood for the spacer, thus there wont be room between the cheeks to fit the blade if both the blade and the inside of the cheeks get both a couple coats of epoxy and a couple coats of paint, so I may have to take a sander and grind away a millimeter or two of thickness where the blade pivots in the rudder head assembly, OR, epoxy in a "shim" of something (glass cloth?) in the rudder glue-up to make the slot for the rudder blade wider.
2. I bought some new pintles from CLC for the new rudder hoping to use the same gudgeons already on the boat as I did for the stock rudder but on the upper pintle, the aft screw will punch thru the open space where the blade kicks up.  I may be adding an inch wide piece of solid wood to the front of the rudder to provide more meat on the leading edge of the rudder to mount the pintles.     Another solution (to me is tricky) is simply to use short screws for the rear holes in the pintle. With the rest of the fastenings being through-bolted, there's no question of enough strength, and the short screws need only keep the pintle in alignment. 
3. One idea I saw on some pictures on other forums was to glue the spacer to one cheek, then bolt (not gluing) the other cheek to that assembly, which would allow for adding some cloth to make the slot wider, and would also allow for taking the cheeks apart to service/clean the insides of the cheeks down the road.
4. For easier beaching and launching, I had hoped the bottom edge of the fixed part of the rudder assembly would be higher than the bottom of the skeg, but it appears the intent is that the bottom of the cheeks line up with the bottom of the skeg.  I may be moving the pintles down a couple inches so the rudder is a bit higher (realizing that would mean less rudder in the water).
5. In order to not dig into the gravel/sand as much when beaching/launching, I intend to round off the cheeks on both the foreward and aft corners.

Comments welcomed and invited.

Curt

   OOPS..accidental blank post, and one thought I forgot:

6. I definetly will use shock cord for the hold down line, looped around a turning block and secured on the side of the rudder....and will also add a line mid way down the aft edge of the rudder for a pull up line, like in Tim's picture.  I agree with his idea of a drill/fill/drill hole and am planning on a shackle or eye strap on the rudder, then some very small line for the underwater part, tied to a thicker line for leading it over the rudder thru a cam cleat, and then led forward to the sitting position.

   Well, I had an interesting series of experiences with my barndoor rudder last weekend. Where do I sign up for the kick up rudder program?

Looking forward to your resolution and photos Curt.

ev

   Eric, please post about your experiences if you're willing; I would like to hear about the things that made you into a kickup-rudder-seeker. Maybe a new thread to help people like me make a decision or a plan to adjust sailing habits?

I've yet to build a boat, that adventure expected to commence in late summer or early fall but, since I'll be dealing with this issue, I've been wondering why this suggestion posted just above by DaveJ isn't not only a feasible solution but the the better one.

"Is it feasible to weight the rudder blade so that the default position is down and the only line need is an uphaul? Possibly replace the wood rudder blade with a steel one?"

Having looked at as many build sites as I could find, it seems that weighting a centerboard with a lead disc has been a common practice and good solution to the problem, at least with centerboards. I'm wondering why that wouldn't be desirable, if not better, for a kick-up rudder, providing an "automatic" return to the down position without the need of extra line. An alternative, as DaveJ suggests, would be a metal rudder. Seems to me that the less lines involved, the better. I know that this would add more weight aft but I wouldn't think it would be sufficient to seriously hamper trimming under sail. 

Thanks in advance for any insight offered.

Sullivan